Where Was James White?

Posted: July 8, 2013 in NEWS
Tags: , , , , ,

James White responded to this article on the Dividing Line and our response to *that* response is here which replaces this. White never replied to our rebuttal but we are leaving this mess of an article up for now as a point of reference since it is referred to in White’s response as well as ours.

UPDATE 9/7 This article will be AMENDED but not RETRACTED IN FULL due to the response offered by James White. There will be issues deleted, and issues added that James did not respond to, and of course, we will TRY (no promises 🙂 to be more gracious in our response to James White’s video than he was with ours. We promise to use a spell checker this time before publishing the edit so that Mr. White doesn’t have a heart attack over KJVOs that misspell words.

We do note that James White repeatedly and erroneously attributed our grammatical errors and citations what we admitted in the very beginning of the article that we could be wrong about to our being King James Onlyist. As if being a King James Onlyist determines the outcome of how an article is written grammatically. 

James also neglected to respond to the comments from his sister.

We will also be adding or rather asking James White to answer the question that was posed to him by Peter Lumpkins regarding his teaching at Golden State.

We also note that James White failed to notice the articles we have hosted on here from Will Kinney that address some of White’s errors cited against the KJV since bragged that this is the first KJVO site that never mentioned his book “The King James Only Debate”. As much as we digress in catering to his ego here, we actually do have references.

White’s response to this article is here. It takes a few minutes to get passed all of his self aggrandizement before you actually get to the response so be patient. 

UPDATED: We have updated this article with new information at the bottom, and comments that give a defense of the Caner issues. We could really give 2 flipped pickled eggs about Ergun Caner’s issue, what we are concerned about is James White’s hypocrisy, and now statements made from his own sister about intimidation regarding her sexual abuse allegations against their parents.

The following may be total speculation on my part, and may be refuted at some later time, of which I will gladly retract what I am about to write, but a pattern I have noticed from James White, popularly apologeticist and debater, has become quite disturbing.

*James White debated Ergun Caner, a teacher and president at Liberty University, over the issue of Calvinism [Accordingly, this information will be amended as there has been no evidence of an actual debate. A supporter of James White erroneously labeled a video link as “Ergun Caner vs. James White On Calvinism” but it is merely excerpts of a sermon by Caner. James White claims that Caner changed the rules for the debate 12 days prior to the debate, so White canceled from fear that Caner would again change the rules hours before the debate was scheduled. I have not heard the other side of this excuse but seems to be the second or third time we have heard such excuses, ie. Peter Ruckman where White did not post the final letter sent to him by Ruckman]. In 2010, James White later went on a personal witch hunt to dig up dirt on Caner which led to a large controversy over the veracity of Caner’s testimony that he was actually raised in Turkey as a Muslim as he has claimed for several years, a matter of which 3 years later, White is still addressing [1]I have watch White’s videos on this, I have also read Dr. Norman Geisler’s exhaustive response [2] . Both sides have compelling arguments.

But what concerns me most is James White’s MOTIVE for searching out this information? James White has an extensive history of debating Muslims, and thus should have been (and likely was) aware for quite some time that Caner was also among the noted scholars that debated Muslims. Yet White’s attack on Caner seems to have come only AFTER his debate with White on Calvinism. [3]

White published a book titled “The Potter’s Freedom”, a response to Norman Geisler’s book, “Chosen But Free”, Geisler’s refutation of Calvinism. Geisler then published a video response to White’s book titled “Why I Am Not A Five-Point Calvinist” . White is now accusing Norman Geisler of covering up for Ergun Caner and demanding that Geisler remove Caner from his position in Geisler’s ministry.

White also had a debate with Dave Hunt over Calvinism, and White later accuses Dave Hunt of misrepresenting Calvinism and being dishonest about his knowledge of the Reformers. One James White support even goes so far as to accuse Dave Hunt (now deceased) of refuting Calvinism due to a Jesuit conspiracy. [4]

Now here is my question for James White.

With all the controversy that he stirred over Ergun Caner, and the amount of evidence that he amassed to argue his case, enough to demand that he resign his position, how is it that James White remains SILENT about the lawsuit and allegations against C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries (“SGM”) involving the cover ups of dozens of sex crimes and abuse cases?? SGM is undoubtedly one of the most popular Calvinist movements in the United States, and several of C.J. Mahaney’s cohorts are also collegues of James White (Mark Dever, Albert Mohler, Ligon Duncan). Some of SGM’s own staff published accusations against C.J. Mahaney. [5] .

With such a high-profile lawsuit and accusations against one of the most popular Calvinist groups extant, it would be foolish to think that James White was/is not privy to these matters. And yet from what I have been able to find (or rather unable to find) is any response from James White whatsoever about the abuse at Sovereign Grace Ministries. I have spent hours upon hours scouring the internet for a response from White and have found none.

James White was eager (3 years in the running now) to oust Ergun Caner for being dishonest about where he was born and demanding that those whom he serves with in ministry denounce him, but when it comes to his own camp about SEXUAL ABUSE, James White is SILENT.

Can anyone explain this??

UPDATE: We have also learned from other sources that James White’s sister has called him out intimidating her for her allegations of sexual abuse at the hands of their parents. She states in part:

I was born into the same family as my brother, James R. White. Our parents were both victims of abuse as young people. They carried those scars as people in those days did: silently. Silently, and without resolution, because no one talked about those things. You just toughed it out and did the best you could.

After spending a lengthy time working through the sexual abuse that my father subjected me to for years, I had to confront my brother with the truth.

“my brother James was hostile, defensive, and threatening. He warned me to “watch what I said” about my parents. He also made a very feeble comment about hoping he could “help me” someday” http://abbaslittlegirl.blogspot.com/2009/04/out-of-darkness-cross-i-carry.html

And her follow up story here: http://abbaslittlegirl.blogspot.com/p/out-of-darkness-rough-draft.html

We have found at least one response from James White but does not appear to address his sisters sexual abuse allegations. What is odd though is White repeatedly refers to his sister by her married name, and as “Mrs Bonds” instead of “Patty” or “My sister” and refers to the Catholic priests he mentions as “FR” (for “Father”).

 

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Those reading this should also consider reading the following:

 

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Comments
  1. For starters, White and Caner never actually debated on Calvinism due to a last-minute proposal to change the rules which White couldn’t agree to.

    Secondly, the Caner issue is relevant to apologetics, and the Mahaney case is not. I know of no way in which White, a Reformed Baptist, and Mahaney, founder of a charismatic, but Calvinistic, network of churches, are actually associated. Your accusations are completely misguided on all kinds of levels, but I will leave the documentation of just how off your claims are to others who have more time on their hands.

    • drjamesa says:

      My primary concern isn’t about Ergun Caner of which I could really care less. My issue is with White going on the offensive when a much bigger issue was in his own back yard, and I haven’t found anything covering the issue from him. But I’m posting your comment because I don’t have all the information I’m looking for.

  2. Devin says:

    “James White debated Ergun Caner, a teacher and president at Liberty University, over the issue of Calvinism.”

    -Unfortunately this never happened, like all of Caner’s debates, as Caner (both Ergun and Emir) bailed at the last minute and have refused to debate this ever since.-

    “In 2010, James White later went on a personal witch hunt to dig up dirt on Caner which led to a large controversy over the veracity of Caner’s testimony that he was actually raised in Turkey as a Muslim as he has claimed for several years, a matter of which 3 years later, White is still addressing [1]I have watch White’s videos on this, I have also read Dr. Norman Geisler’s exhaustive response [2]”

    -Actually, Dr. White is not the one to uncover Caner’s lies and he didn’t actively seek them out. It was Muslims on youtube who caught them and contacted Dr. White. Dr. White debates Muslims so this was a natural relation, as Caner claimed to be something he really was not and that was destroying the Christian witness to every Muslim who heard Caner as a representative of Jesus. Dr. White did have a history with Caner but even if he hadn’t he would’ve publicly called out Caner for the same reasons. None of this was related to their history, the common factor in this is that White *actually* debates Muslims, as Caner does not but made a living off of Christians believing that he did do such things.-

    “Both sides have compelling arguments.”

    -I am really not sure how you could say Geisler’s “defense” of Caner is compelling. So much abundant evidence stands against Caner. So much to where he is now suing people for posting the videos demonstrating his lies! That really doesn’t help Caner’s cause.-

    “But what concerns me most is James White’s MOTIVE for searching out this information? James White has an extensive history of debating Muslims, and thus should have been (and likely was) aware for quite some time that Caner was also among the noted scholars that debated Muslims.”

    -Actually, Caner has never debated any Muslims. If he has, there is no evidence of such debates. Each Muslim he’s claimed to debate has said they have never met him nor debated him. Another time he said he debated a Muslim… who was actually a Christian author. Caner just simply made up everything. That is very sad and I hate that he got paid a lot of money by Christians for these lies.-

    “Yet White’s attack on Caner seems to have come only AFTER his debate with White on Calvinism.”

    -Again, they never debated. The link you have to support this claim is a youtube video compiled of Caner’s discussions on topics and Dr. White’s discussions, they do not interact with each other they were only edited to contrast what both say about issues.-

    “White published a book titled “The Potter’s Freedom”, a response to Norman Geisler’s book, “Chosen But Free”, Geisler’s refutation of Calvinism. Geisler then published a video response to White’s book titled “Why I Am Not A Five-Point Calvinist” . White is now accusing Norman Geisler of covering up for Ergun Caner and demanding that Geisler remove Caner from his position in Geisler’s ministry.”

    -Geisler totally covered for Caner because Caner was hired by his seminary. If he got busted, that would tarnish Veritas seminary… somewhere that Geisler collects a paycheck.-

    “White also had a debate with Dave Hunt over Calvinism, and White later accuses Dave Hunt of misrepresenting Calvinism and being dishonest about his knowledge of the Reformers. One James White support even goes so far as to accuse Dave Hunt (now deceased) of refuting Calvinism due to a Jesuit conspiracy.”

    -The link you have to support Dr. White making such a claim about Geisler is not supported by what you linked. In fact the link has nothing to do with anything about Dr. White other than another link on the page about he and Hunt’s differences. The content of the link has nothing supporting the claim that Dr. White accused Hunt of refuting Calvinism due to some conspiracy.-

    “With all the controversy that he stirred over Ergun Caner, and the amount of evidence that he amassed to argue his case, enough to demand that he resign his position, how is it that James White remains SILENT about the lawsuit and allegations against C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries (“SGM”) involving the cover ups of dozens of sex crimes and abuse cases?? SGM is undoubtedly one of the most popular Calvinist movements in the United States, and several of C.J. Mahaney’s cohorts are also collegues of James White (Mark Dever, Albert Mohler, Ligon Duncan). Some of SGM’s own staff published accusations against C.J. Mahaney. With such a high-profile lawsuit and accusations against one of the most popular Calvinist groups extant, it would be foolish to think that James White was/is not privy to these matters. And yet from what I have been able to find (or rather unable to find) is any response from James White whatsoever about the abuse at Sovereign Grace Ministries. I have spent hours upon hours scouring the internet for a response from White and have found none.”

    -White had no need to mention this issue as he is not even remotely associated with Mahaney, Dever, Mohler or Duncan. If you check out the large groups like The Gospel Coalition, The Alliance Of Confessing Evangelicals etc… and other popular Calvinistic groups, James White is not a part of any of them. He may mention something Mohler said every once in a while, but he has no association with them, therefore he didn’t have to say anything about it. Most likely he didn’t even know about it as he has a grueling traveling schedule and everything was unfolding about the SGM issue when Dr. White’s new book on the Quran went into print. Seriously, there could be all sorts of things that most Calvinists know about going on in the blogosphere or within denominations and White will not know about them. He admits to this often on his show that he doesn’t find out much of these things and even when he does he doesn’t immediately throw himself into the middle of it. Also, to let you know, many people for a long time, even before the SGM controversy didn’t accept SGM as a Calvinist group. There is absolutely no reason to try and connect White with the SGM controversy. Especially regarding the Caner controversy, you’re conflating two vastly different issues and trying to heap both of them onto White. That isn’t fair and it isn’t logical argumentation.-

    “James White was eager (3 years in the running now) to oust Ergun Caner for being dishonest about where he was born and demanding that those whom he serves with in ministry denounce him, but when it comes to his own camp about SEXUAL ABUSE, James White is SILENT.”

    -Really, White would’ve been happy to not have to deal with any of the Caner stuff. In a perfect world Caner would’ve ousted himself under conviction of the Holy Spirit, but he did not. In a perfect world others would’ve caught on to his emotional lies about his own testimony and kicked him out of ministry altogether and exposed him, yet politics came into play. Liberty University said that Caner didn’t lie, but that he “misspoke” yet they still gave him the boot. Anyone who looks at any of the videos will see that he lied straight through his teeth to Christians all across America and even to our armed forces! The only person claiming Mahaney is in James White’s “camp” is you. If you want to air out some grievances about silence regarding Mahaney, chalk that up to The Gospel Coalition or The Alliance Of Confessing Evangelicals, as Mahaney is a member of both of those groups and James White simply is not. There is no connection there.-

    “The following may be total speculation on my part, and may be refuted at some later time, of which I will gladly retract what I am about to write, but a pattern I have noticed from James White, popularly apologeticist and debater, has become quite disturbing.”

    -I appreciate your heart in this, as it is wise to preface such a post with this. I do believe a retraction is in order, or that you interact with what I’ve told you regarding what you’ve said. Thanks.

    • drjamesa says:

      Like I said to the other commenter, I’m really not so concerned about Caner (whom I don’t follow, and have just as many doctrinal issues with as I do White), my issue is with White’s silence. But I have ran across some interesting information from James White’s own sister that might explain his silence.

      http://abbaslittlegirl.blogspot.com/2009/04/out-of-darkness-cross-i-carry.html

      http://abbaslittlegirl.blogspot.com/p/out-of-darkness-rough-draft.html

      • Devin says:

        Now it really looks like a witch hunt, my friend. You’re seriously digging up his sister’s blog in order to make some connection to James White not mentioning something he has nothing to do with and has no association with? The man is an apologist, deal with what he says not what he doesn’t say. Also, you should go about fixing this article or scrapping it because of the errors (which are numerous) it contains.

      • drjamesa says:

        First of all, I did not “dig up” his sisters blog. Someone saw the article and posted that information to me on another forum.
        I believe it is quite relevant because James White has no problem going on “witch hunts” to personally attack those whom vehemently oppose his ideas.
        The only error that was on here is one regarding his debate with Caner which we have duly noted.

        But I can see why you would think that White’s treatment of his own sister is irrelevant because she was probably predetermined to be molested right? The connection isn’t just to his failure to mention anything about one of the most massive cover ups of abuse in Calvinist churches, but it shows motive as to why he would remain silent on such an issue when he treated his own family member no different.

        White demands repentance of Caner, but has White repented and apologized for being so cruel and heartless to his own sister? There have bee sexual scandals plaguing the churches for quite some time now, especially in the IFB and SGM churches, and you don’t think that such an attitude towards a sexual abuse victim in his own family does not reflect on Christianity considering White’s high-profile character? You sound like all the other skeptics that just want to sweep such issues under the rug. I’m sick of this attitude among IFB and sick of it in churches everywhere.

        And I’ll run this blog how I see fit. I began the article admitting that what I was about to say COULD BE speculation which is something I don’t do very often. And I’ve made notes where those who have contrary information could be verified. Why don’t you work on getting an answer from James White about his sister, or “Mrs Bonds” as he refers to her.

  3. Jake says:

    I think it is important to understand that Dr. White has not constantly covered this issue for three years. It was covered when it first came to light and when Caner was making news for these things. It was only covered again recently because Caner sent White a legal threat through an attorney. Then he sued a Christian, Southern Baptist, pastor recently for posting videos that prove Caner was lying in an effort to bully a small church pastor laboring for the Lord to delete the evidence of Caner’s lies. It is only because Caner is again sinning more and attacking brothers in the Lord, that White covered the issue again recently.

  4. James White says:

    I responded to this article at the beginning of today’s Dividing Line broadcast, which can be accessed at http://www.aomin.org. Since you said you stand ready to be refuted, well….you were. I look forward to your apology and retraction!

    James White

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