Posts Tagged ‘Hip and Thigh’

By Dr. James Ach and Dr. Elisha Weismann

James White recently produced a response to Chris Pinto’s documentary, “Tares Among the Wheat”, criticizing Pinto with a variety of rather silly attacks. Tares Among the Wheat is a documentary about the untold history behind the Codex Sinaiticus, one of minority texts used by liberal Bible “scholars” to undermine the King James Bible.

We are going to let Chris Pinto speak for himself by posting the links to his 2 responses to James White, as Pinto does a more than adequate job of addressing White’s “critiques”.  But there three things that we want to address before posting the links. First of all, James White and his sidekick, Fred Butler (Hip and Thigh) criticize the MUSIC used by Pinto in his documentary as “eerie” and argue that Pinto is using the music to prove a point in his documentary. James White claimed to have laughed hysterically when he heard the music. We here at DoRightChristians laughed hysterically when we heard James White use this as an argument against Pinto’s documentary, particularly when James White has done the exact same thing to Dave Hunt in his opening musical prelogue to his Radio Free Geneva show in cherry picking statements from Hunt about the Reformers and Calvinism while playing “eerie music” behind the quotes. Not only this, but James White has referred to the Ergun Caner controversy as “Caner’s JIHAD against Christianity”. Now we have already stated that we believe criticism against Caner has validity to it, but for White to call it a JIHAD AGAINST CHRISTIANS, and then claim that humble men like Pinto are painting false caricatures of historical characters such as Tischendorf is patently obnoxious and hypocritical. Of course, White has also done the same to us in that, since we are King James Only, we must not have the ability to understand the Trinity, Eternal Security, the virgin birth, Creation, the Resurrection, etc. According to James White, if you are not a Critical Text proponent, you can’t possibly have an accurate view of historical and Biblical Christianity.

Secondly, James White opens his show with comments that Pinto’s scholarship is not as good or as responsible as CNN journalism. So now when anyone critiques James White, they must be able to present scholarship that is as “good and responsible” as a liberal communist news organization. (Chris also addresses a hypocritical assessment White makes about a quote Pinto made from a BBC reporter which conflicts with White’s earlier CNN comment.)

This is the arrogant “Scholarship Only” attitude that men like White, Butler and practically all anti KJVO “scholars” take. If you don’t agree with them, you must not have “scholarship”. This is the same attitude that the Pharisees had against Christ: “How knoweth this man letters HAVING NEVER LEARNED” John 7:15. It is a deceptive tactic that White uses to inoculate his listeners before beginning his tirade against any KJVO apologist or those who support the Majority Text against the Critical Text. Butler uses the same tactics as well. He begins his articles with personal insults so that his readers begin with the idea that he is critiquing an absolute nut job and heretic before he even begins to address why he disagrees with the premise of his detractor’s arguments.

Here is just one comment Butler (five pointer) says about Pinto on his “Hip and Thigh” website,

The fact that Chris passes off his cherry-picked citations and sloppy research as “scholarship” and then reacts with hostility when people who know better challenge him also troubles me when you say he is a godly guy. 1

First of all, Chris Pinto never made the claim that his documentary was to be viewed as “scholarship”. But, since that is the criteria in which occult lovers like Butler base their judgments, thus the accusation follows. Considering that Butler himself has NEVER addressed the issue of Constantine Simonides on any of his anti KJV articles, and has only addressed it for the first time after Pinto’s documentary, shows that Butler himself never did the research on this issue before his unwarranted critique of Pinto’s video. Furthermore, Butler offered several opinions about Pinto’s documentary PRIOR to actually watching it, which he admits he just recently watched it for the first time in late November, 2013. Should we call that “sloppy scholarship” since Butler obviously “answered a matter before he heard it”? (Proverbs 18:13.) Then you will notice at the bottom of Butler’s comment he asks about finding Pinto’s church, denomination and pastor, matters which he could have easily  simply asked Pinto himself about, but instead, posts it to someone he really has no clue if they know this information or not, simply to give the reader the impression that there’s probably something even more sinister about Pinto if we all knew what his denomination was. A truly snake-in-the-grass tactic. Ironically enough, Butler recently posted an article about evangelism where he stated, “First, they mistakenly believe apologetics and evangelism is a discipline only carried out by trained professional like pastors, seminary grads, or those who have studied in some apologetic program.” Doesn’t seem like Butler practices what he preaches.

Chris never responded in hostility to White or Butler. According to Butler, anyone who disagrees with him and White are “hostile”, but yet would he consider himself “hostile” by his personal attacks on Pinto? Of course not, because he’s a hypocritical windbag. (And yes, you can call us hostile, we don’t mind 🙂 ) We have also shown how Butler does the exact same “cherry picking” that he accused Pinto of (although Butler and White’s accusation of “cherry picking” amounts to not presenting the Critical Text view in support of their arguments in which Pinto’s objective was rather to show history that has been neglected and has never been addressed by even White or Butler themselves until this documentary by Pinto was produced).

Fred Butler Uses The Force to Fight KJVO

Fred Butler Uses The Force to Fight KJVO

The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.” Malachi 2:12

Finally, the critical point that Pinto makes in his response is how the Codex Sinaiticus is used by skeptics and critics against Christians. Will Kinney recently demonstrated this in an article about the reading of Luke 23:34 where Muslims argue that the reading of “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” is not found in any of the so-called “earliest manuscripts”, and in support of their arguments, they QUOTE JAMES WHITE. (See article here). Pinto explains how the “scholarship” of James White and Butler actually help bolster Muslim and atheist attacks against the Bible, and how James White actually agrees with atheists like Bart Ehrman against Christians who believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God.  Thus so-called “scholarship” by White and Butler actually serves to embolden the beliefs that Muslims and atheists have against the Bible which in turn serves to create more confidence that Islam is right, and that Christianity is based upon a book that is full of forged documents and variants.

While James White and Butler think they are actually apologists defending Christianity, they have either by willful actions or just shear ignorance caused MORE harm to the belief in the validity and authenticity of the Scriptures and have rather helped to encourage the spread of Islam.

PINTOS FIRST RESPONSE

PINTOS SECOND RESPONSE

Additional Interesting Facts About White and Pinto

By the way, before James White changed over to the new Alpha & Omega Ministries website, we had document pictures of James White in the Caymen Islands donning a Scottish Kilt that had what appeared as a clear Freemason sporran (the purse like attachment worn in the front over the kilt). This photo has now been removed. It is also interesting that as an apologist, James White has never produced a definitive work on Freemasonry but makes only casual references to it in books and articles about Mormonism. In one article, (now removed) he merely shows how some of Mormonisms rituals were borrowed from Freemasons. However, this merely shows that the Mormon ritual was not original, it doesn’t make the case that Freemasonry in itself is inherently evil. Considering that White opposes Pinto’s view of possible Jesuit conspiracies, and Jesuits and Freemasonry have a very strong connection, it does not surprise us that White says very little publicly about Freemasonry.

White has also still refused to respond to us about the accusations that his sister leveled against him where she claims that he threatened her when she told them about their father sexually molesting her for several years. Response to James White.

Also read our article on how Muslims quote James White to prove that Luke 23:34 is not part of the Bible.

***

On Fred Butler’s older website, he gives a review of the Batman movie, “The Dark Knight Rises”. The article hosts a picture of Batman with the occultic Phoenix over Batman’s head. It is no wonder that the theme of the picture itself is titled “A Fire Will Rise” based on the Phoenix slogan “Out of the Ashes Beauty Will Rise”. This is the blatantly occultic theme of Freemasonry and other pagan religions that the Phoenix will one day arise from the ashes (bottomless pit, Rev 9:1) and recapture the world which he once lost because some angelic being (Christ!) stuffed him in this hole after burning him up in battle. Don’t believe us? See the explanation from a Masonic website for yourself. Or the following explanation from an admitted Illuminati website in the section, “New Word Order, Phoenix Resurgum“. The Phoenix is a very common occultic symbol which has been used in symbols everywhere from Freemasonry, the Roman Catholic Church, the US dollar bill, and even John Calvin’s college in Geneva.

Symbol of John Calvin's College with the Catholic Key, Phoenix and IHS Logo

Symbol of John Calvin’s College with the Catholic Key, Phoenix and IHS Logo

Butler gives the following rave review of the movie,

Overall, the movie is outstanding.

The main villain this time is an anarchist terrorist named Bane played by Tom Hardy.  The character has a lot of great lines and Hardy delivers them well, though his modulated voice reminded me of Christopher Plummer’s “General Chang” from Star Trek 6.

Butler even refers to film critics as APOLOGISTS, a term typically reserved for those who defend the Bible and Christianity.

I’m sure there are apologists who would say the battle started around 5 pm and by the time Batman gets in the mix, dusk had already fallen.  Maybe.

So ironic that Butler criticizes the length of Pinto’s documentary, but has no problem taking his wife and himself to see TRILOGIES of OCCULT MOVIES. Butler then goes on to state that, “What about any Christian-themed motifs seen in the film? I honestly did not go to this film looking for them…..That said, I didn’t go see The Dark Knight Rises because of the conservative themes or so-called Christian “redemptive” elements, though I will say the conservative ideas made the picture that much more enjoyable.” When Hollywood starts producing films with Christian motifs through movies like Star Wars, Batman, and Star Trek, we might as well agree with Darwin that humans came from monkeys and sit down and enjoy a banana or two with Fred.

So it is clear that Butler uses “the force” to gain his insights into “Biblical scholarship”. Perhaps if Pinto played the Batman Theme as the background for his documentary, Butler and White would have taken it more seriously. Would White criticize Butler over his affinity for occultic movies? Of course not-birds of a feather (or in this case, a Phoenix)……

This is your picture of how “scholarship” treats people that actually believe we have an inspired word of God that we can see, handle and read, and that the ordinary person can digest and study without having to get permission or authoritative interpretations from a priest. Not only have men like White and Butler actually helped the spread of Islam, but have attempted to bring Christians back into the Dark Ages where only the priest or “scholar” TRULY KNEW what the Bible REALLY said. And it is with this that we admonish our believers to file the “scholarship” of White and Butler, et al,  in the same place Tischendorf claimed to have found the Sinaiticus.

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UPDATE 2/12/14

On James White’s 2/11/14 radio show, and on White’s Twitter account, White referred to me as a “loon” because I criticized his use of a Star Trek excerpt he used as an illustration in critiquing the Ken Ham vs Bill Nye Creation Debate. Anyone who saw this excerpt could see that White was quoting the lines before they played which means he had watched this video numerous times before. I stated that there were plenty of examples in the Old Testament that could be used for story lines that researching such occultic TV shows like Star Trek is unnecessary.

I also criticized a Tweet that James White sent out to Albert Mohler about Hardy Boys novels:

Listening to @albertmohler talk about reading the Hardy Boys series…just as I did. Still have my old set, considering some Kindle eds!

White referred to me as an “Ultra Fundy” because I said that God’s people should ACT like God’s people and not be entertained and fascinated with Hollywood movies and novels.

When the world doesn’t see that you act any different than they do, why should they take you seriously when you tell them that living a life in Christ is so much better than what the world offers?

White had several followers comment on the matter. One named Bob Willits, identified himself as a cigar lover with a profile picture that displayed him puffing on his favorite Cuban. Another, Crododuck, displayed a picture of a naked men holding 2 cats on his shoulder, and another picture with a woman in skant clothes spreading her legs. When you fail to demand separation from the world, these are the type of followers you get.

By Dr. Elisha Weismann and Dr. James Ach

A recent article by the Pope adoring Fred Butler slandering Chris Pinto follows the logic of James White-among many others-contending that the Codex Sinaiticus was not actually discovered in a trash can as affirmed by “KJVOnlyists”. What is their evidence? From the donut- glaze- saturated keyboard of Butler is written:

Tischendorf’s second return in 1853 to the monastery was unfruitful, but on his third visit in 1859, he took a walk with a young Athenian steward who invited him back to his room for some refreshment. The steward told Tischendorf that he had read the OT in Greek and then revealed to him a bulky parcel wrapped in a red cloth. When he unwrapped it, it contained not only the sheets Tischendorf saw in 1844 that were being used to light fires, it contained some 346 parchments from the same volume.

Quip and Lie (Fred Butler, the author of the Hip and Thigh blog) as most others, conveniently leave out the events that lead up to this red-wrapped bundle of apostate joy. First, they lay emphasis that the Codex was “neatly wrapped” in red cloth, and then secondly, they note that a basket is not the same thing as a garbage can, and wallah, no evidence exists that any part of the Codex was found in a garbage can. Thus essentially, the argument for whether or not the Codex was found in a garbage can comes down to semantics and a little history revision (by deliberately omitting Tischendorf’s own statements regarding how the Codex was found).

Butler has a bad habit of quoting bias sources as well. In one article again slandering Chris Pinto, Butler sites Frederick Kenyon who claimed that Constantine SImonides, who laid claim to the actual authorship of Codex Sinaiticus, was only 15 years old when he claimed to have compiled manuscripts for the transcription of the Codex, and that therefore Simonides could not have possibly had the scholarship necessary at such a young age to perform such a rigorous and pedantic task (although, as a Calvinist, Butler would have no problem with the scholarship of Jonathon Edwards who went to Yale at age 13).  However, Kendrick admitted, as does history, that Simonides was born in 1820, and his first claim to the Codex occurred in 1840. That would have made Simonides 20 years old, not 15. After confronting Fred Butler with this glaring inconsistency, Butler removed the date of Simonides birth year from his article, and indicated no correction, although he still maintains that Simonides was only “a teenager”. Butler defends his usage of “teenager” by claiming Simonides could have been 19, but Butler makes this assertion in support of Kenyon who claimed that Simonides was only 15. Butler cited Kenyon as an authority on the veracity of Simonides claims, but then capitulates and obfuscates on the reliability of Kenyon’s facts.

From Tischendorf’s own testimony he writes the following:

It was in April, 1844, that I embarked at Leghorn for Egypt. The desire which I felt to discover some precious remains of any manuscripts, more especially Biblical, of a date  which would carry us back to the early times of Christianity, was realized beyond my expectations. It was at the foot of Mount Sinai, in the convent of St. Catherine, that I discovered the pearl of all my researches. In visiting the library of the monastery, in the month of May, 1844, I perceived in the middle of the great hall a large and wide basket full of old parchments; and the librarian, who was a man of information, told me that two heaps of papers like this, mouldered by time, had been already committed to the flames. What was my surprise to find amid this heap of papers a considerable number of sheets of a copy of the Old Testament in Greek, which seemed to me to be one of the most ancient that I had ever seen. The authorities of the convent allowed me to possess myself of a third of these parchments, or about forty-five sheets, all the more readily as they were destined for the fire

First of all, how could Tischendorf claim that these were the oldest manuscripts he’d seen without any examination of them first?*. Secondly, the story shows clearly that the manuscripts that were in the basket were there for the purpose of awaiting incineration. If that’s not a “trash can” excuse the puppies for drinking out of the kitten’s milk bowl.

Dean Burgon, who thoroughly debunked the work of Westcott & Hort (whom Butler considers “good godly evangelical scholars”-more on that later) writes,

“We suspect that these two manuscripts are indebted for their preservation, “solely to their ascertained evil character”; which has occasioned that the one eventually found its way, four centuries ago, to a forgotten shelf in the Vatican Library;

“while the other, after exercising the ingenuity of several generations of critical Correctors, eventually got deposited in the wastepaper basket of the Convent at the foot of Mount Sinai.

“Had B and ALEPH been copies of average purity, they must long ago since have shared the inevitable fate of books which are freely used and highly prized; namely, they would have fallen into decadence and disappeared from sight.” The Revision Revised , pg 319.

Even Norman Geisler, who is not only NOT KJVO, but wrote an endorsement for James White’s “The King James Only Controversy” shown on the cover of White’s book writes,

“It was found in the monastery of St. Catherine at Mount Sinai by the German Count Tischendorf, who was living in Prussia by permission of the czar…”On his first visit (1844), he discovered forty-three leaves of vellum, containing portions of the LXX (I Chronicles, Jeremiah, Nehemiah and Esther), in a basket of scraps which the monks were using to light their fires. He secured it and took it to the University Library at Leipzig, Germany. It remains there, known as the Codex Frederico-Augustanus…Geisler & Nix, General Introduction to the Bible, 1968.

Popular KJVO critic, James White, although adamantly denying that the Codex was found in a waste basket, says of the finding of Tischendorf,

Constantin von Tischendorf embarked on a journey to the Middle East in 1844 searching for biblical manuscripts. While visiting the monastery of St. Catherine on Mount Sinai, he noted some scraps of parchment in a basket that was due to be used to stoke the fires in the oven of the monastery. Upon looking at the scraps he discovered that they contained part of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

This was exactly what he was looking for, and so he asked if he could take the scraps to his room for examination, warning the monks that they should not be burning such items. His obvious excitement worried the monks, who became less than cooperative in providing further information about manuscripts at the monastery. King James Only Controversy, pp 32-33

Thus we have clear and convincing evidence that the Codex was FIRST discovered in a basket, and that basket was used to reserve fodder for kindling. Now perhaps White and Butler call fodder for fire from materials one wishes to discard by burning as non-trash, but common sense modern vernacular would have no issues with the term “waste basket”. To offer such criticism merely because the manuscripts were not placed in Glad bags and the “basket” did not have a Flip Wilson lid on it is shear semantic nonsense.

Furthermore, White and Butler, et al, lay emphasis on Tischendorf’s receipt of the REMAINDER of the Codex wrapped in red cloth as evidence that the Codex was not found in a dumpster. However, Tischendorf’s own writings show that he obtained his initial manuscripts directly from the waste basket, and it was only LATER that he gained REMAINING manuscripts that were wrapped in cloth. BUT! where did THOSE manuscripts “wrapped in red cloth” come from?? Again, from Tischendorf’s own testimony relaying what the monk had given him he writes,

 Scarcely had he entered the room when, resuming our former subject of conversation, he said, “And I too have read a Septuagint, i. e., a copy of the Greek translation made by the Seventy;” and so saying, he took down from the corner of the room a bulky kind of volume wrapped up in a red cloth, and laid it before me. I unrolled the cover, and discovered, to my great surprise, not only those very fragments which, fifteen years before, I had taken out of the basket, but also other parts of the Old Testament, the New Testament complete, and in addition, the Epistle of Barnabas and a part of the Pastor of Hermas.

Notice what Tischendorf says about the manuscripts in the red wrapped cloth, “ which, fifteen years before, I had taken out of the basket”. So whatever manuscripts Tischendorf did not obtain 15 years ago from the waste basket, he collected the remainder on this particular visit, and the manuscripts that White and Butler, et al, so vivaciously remind us were “wrapped neatly in red cloth” were themselves TAKEN FROM THE SAME BASKET WHERE TISCHENDORF OBTAINED HIS FIRST MANUSCRIPTS 15 YEARS AGO. 

Oh the lengths that Bible agnostics will go to in defending their beloved Pope and his Jesuit minions.

Butler’s Veneration of Westcott & Hort

In response to a blogger named “Sandy” who asks “So do you really believe there is no counter reformation being led by Jesuits?”, Butler replies,

No, not today, nor in the manner that Chris Pinto describes. You have to consider the fact that a number of men committed to the importance of Sinaiticus are Bible-believing, God-fearing, evangelical Christians who are squarely anti-Catholics. Pinto’s thesis implicates them as either being duped by the Jesuits, which would throw their spiritual discernment into being seriously questioned, or unbelieving Catholic sympathizers who are secretly aiding the Jesuits. Both of those scenarios are patently absurd.

First of all, what a naive imbecile to believe that the Jesuits have no CURRENT plans involving a “counter-reformation”. Let’s not forget that Rome’s current “vicar” is a Jesuit. Sure, Butler and White will tell you that Rome has a few bad doctrines, all short of naming the Pope as an antichrist and the Catholic Church as a CULT. But nevertheless, any casual perusal of the Jesuit Oath reveals that a Jesuit will “to a Jew become a Jew, to a Calvinist a Calvinist, to a Protestant a Protestant”.

The first men “committed to the importance of the Sinaiticus” were Westcott & Hort, who comprised a committee for the “revision” of the King James Version in 1881. The following are the “good godly evangelical” beliefs of Westcott & Hort of which almost all modern Bible translations owe their lineage,

“I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly.” (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

“Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible.” (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)

“He [Jesus Christ] never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him.” (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

“(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ.”…(Rev. 3:15) might no doubt bear the Arian meaning, the first thing created.”

“”…Have you read Darwin? How I should like to talk with you about it! In spite of difficulties, I am inclined to think it unanswerable. In any case it is a treat to read such a book.”

“But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with … My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable. If so, it opens up a new period.”

I am inclined to think that no such state as Eden (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adams fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants, as Coleridge justly argues.

“Further I agree with them [Authors of Essays and Reviews] in condemning many leading specific doctrines of the popular theology … Evangelicals seem to me perverted rather than untrue. There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, and especially the authority of the Bible.”

“I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father.” (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77)

The pure Romanish view seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical.” (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 77)

There is OVERWHELMING evidence from the writings of Westcott and Hort themselves as well as their children they had great veneration for Mary and the church of Rome, had heretical views of the deity of Christ, salvation, the inspiration of Scripture, and yet these men are whom White and Butler consider “good godly evangelical” scholars? Even Butler’s favorite Calvinist, Charles Spurgeon wrote of Westcott & Hort,

“With those who treat the Bible as waste paper, and regard the death of Christ as no substitution, we have no desire for fellowship. After the gospel has been found effectual in the eternal salvation of untold multitudes, it seems rather late in the day to alter it; and , since it is the revelation of the all-wise and unchanging God, it appears somewhat audacious to attempt its improvement. When we call up before our mind’s eye the gentlemen who have set themselves this presumptuous task….. Their gigantic intellects are to hatch out the meanings of the Infinite. Hitherto they have not hatched out much worth reading. Their chickens are so much of the Roman breed, that we sometimes seriously suspect that, after all, Jesuitical craft may be at the bottom of this “modern thought”.

But what about Tischendorf’s own beliefs? Tischendorf admittedly claimed to follow in the footsteps of Karl Lachmann**- who was known to reject the inspiration of the Scriptures and was a German philosophical rationalist- and that Tischendorf was a professor within the German universities of whom applied rationalism to the texts of the Bible. Between Tischendorf’s 7th and 8th editions of the Codex were over 8,000 changes to his own manuscripts. Tischendorf did not believe that any English version extant in his time (let alone the KJV) was based on earlier manuscripts, but were all 15th century productions, and thus he did not believe that any inspired or infallible copies of the Bible existed in any language in any version. Butler himself even admits this stating that,

Tischendorf believed the TR, from which the KJV had been translated, was an inadequate text because it was not based upon the “best” manuscripts of the NT.  He believed better manuscripts were waiting to be discovered and their discovery would only serve to refute the skeptics and critics who wrote those trashy novels about the life of Jesus.

So in other words, God was not capable of preserving His word throughout history, and we must all wait for “better” manuscripts which have not yet been discovered to see if we still have the word of God. This is no different from evolutionary thinking, that somehow new evidence will surface to discredit creation, and therefore Christian scientists must stay apprised of all of the archaeological finds of atheists because God forbid they find something that proves there really is no God. Most logical Christians do not need that kind of “evidence”, they believe by faith that there is an Intelligent Designer behind the creation of the universe. It’s too bad this logic doesn’t apply to most Christians when it comes to the preservation of the word of God that we are told to “preach in season and out of season”. We are expected to “reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” from a plethora of manuscripts that wicked scholars can’t even agree on to verify that we actually have the word of God.

And as Pinto pointed out, and as history attests, Tischendorf was granted quite a liberal audience and attention from not only the Pope of Rome, but many of the Pope’s minions. It doesn’t seem to bother Butler that the Pope would permit such welcome to a supposed Protestant “scholar” all the while burning Protestant “heretics” in the dungeons of Roman monasteries. Why were such exceptions extended to Tischendorf from the Roman Papacy that were CLEARLY not extended to any other Protestant minister?

Ironically, Butler attempts to prove Tischendorf was not “in league” with Rome by citing Rome’s oft attempts to erect a “wall” against Tischendorf’s efforts to peruse the manuscripts more thoroughly. Well then doesn’t that beg the question that if Tischendorf was never able to gain a full examination of the texts that the reliability of his own translations of the Codex should be questionable? The very fact that Codex Sinaiticus has Rome written all over it (in some MSSmss, quite LITERALLY with the Roman Imprimatur stamped on the pages) does not seem to make Butler or any other KJVO critic blink, but then neither does Butler’s own version of events claiming that Tischendorf’s manuscript translation is reliable while at the same time admitting that Tischendorf was not permitted a proper perusal of the underlying texts.

Butler proposes that a few scant quotes cited by James Bentley quoting Tischendorf prove his “orthodoxy”. Tischendorf has never published any clear indication that he was a born again Christian, and there are no clear writings extant of just exactly what his beliefs were which is quite odd for anyone claiming to be Protestant. As prolific a writer as Tischendorf was regarding the Codex, one would think he would have produced a clear treatise on his beliefs. Yet Butler relies on Bentley attempts to use a mere scintilla of quotes from Tischendorf which are no different from the professions of any modern Roman priest to prove Tischendorf was a believer. Butler in defending the “orthodoxy” of Tischendorf, offers only the following quote,

He was passionately determined to refute those who were destroying the faith of the Christian world. Many Christians desperately longed for such a refutation. In a pamphlet published in March 1864 Tischendorf wrote, ‘May my writing serve this end: to make you mistrust those novel theories upon the Gospels — or rather, againstthem — which would persuade you that the wonderful details which the Gospels give of our gracious Saviour are founded upon ignorance and deceit.’ [Bentley, 37]

What Catholic priest or even a Jehovah’s Witness would not claim that the Bible contains the “wonderful details which the Gospels give of our gracious Saviour”? Is this a full-proof evidence of fundamental Christian belief? Hardly. Note that Bentley asserts that “Many Christians desperately longed for such a refutation”. A refutation of what? If Tischendorf was a Protestant, then the only refutation “many Christians” were seeking for would be a refutation AGAINST ROME.  Butler claims that Tischendorf was an “evangelical apologist” with absolutely ZERO evidence for such an absurd claim. Tischendorf has absolutely no recorded documentation of refuting any of the heresies extant in his day and thus accordingly, none of these apologetic works are cited by Butler. The only “refutations” that were extant regarding textual evidences were Rome’s disdain over the Textus Receptus and King James Bible. Somehow, Tischendorf supposing to be a Protestant minister, questions the validity of the Protestant Bible from he would naturally have derived any of his Protestant beliefs, begins his search for the “better manuscripts” coincidentally at a CATHOLIC monestary? Also, something that Pinto nor any of his critics have observed, is that not only is it clear that Tischendorf altered the manuscripts, but that monks themselves could have done so in the 15 years between Tischendorf’s initial discoveries, and his return to the monastery on which he obtained the remaining manuscripts wrapped in red cloth. There is clear evidence that that which was wrapped in the red cloth was obtained from the pile of scraps that Tischendorf did not make off with. It begs the question as to why the monks burned any manuscripts at all, and had others wrapped in a red cloth only to remain stagnant and unutilized in a monastery. It is likely that the monks did not know what they were burning, but then once Tischendorf published his first discoveries, and knowing the reception and adulation it was given by the Pope, took the remaining copies, altered them, and then placed them in the red cloth expecting Tischendorf’s return.

Butler’s defense of Tischendorf is inadequate, defies logic and common sense, is often contradictory and often cites as evidence facts not only missing from his own articles but wholly absent from history. The real question is why skeptics such as Butler and White are so quick to vilify Chris Pinto and any other person defending the Textus Receptus or King James Bible over a video that was created that is not specifically in defense of the King James Bible (although Butler MUST paint this label on Pinto in order to classify him as a KJVO so that he can by proxy attach all of his other ridiculous anti- KJVO arguments against anyone that dares lift a hint of criticism against the venerable Tishcendorf, Westcott or Hort). Why go to such extreme lengths to defend such a shady history that follows Tischendorf, Westcott and Hort? Butler dances with sparklers that Pinto can not give absolute proof of a conspiracy, but neither can Butler nor those he cites offer any logical explanation as to why the Roman Catholic Church was so receptive to Tischendorf. Considering that the preponderance of evidence is in favor of the involvement of Rome than against it, it certainly casts great doubt upon the credibility of Butler and his ilk in proffering such a vigorous defense of a “church” they claim to oppose.

I’ll offer my own “conspiracy theory”. Jesuits are known for joining the ranks of their enemies even to the tune of slandering their own religion (Catholics) if it means a greater victory in the long run. Critics like White and Butler will gladly quip “We debate Catholics so we couldn’t possibly be pro-Catholic” as evidence that they would not be likely candidates for Jesuit infiltrators. Their positions on the Catholic church while appearing to cast some of their doctrines in a negative light, are a far cry from labeling the Catholic church for what it really is: a beast from the horns of the dragon straight out of the pits of hell (Revelation 17), that has made every effort to destroy belief in the word of God as the inerrant and preserved revelation of God’s instructions to His church. Just as the Catholic church adopted the “if you can’t kill them [Christians] join them” and made Christianity the state religion of Rome, so too, has the Catholic church maintained that if they can’t destroy the Bible by burning it along with those who translated any anti-Vatican texts, they may as well “join” the legitimate copies of the Bible with amalgamations of corrupted texts, and encourage critics like Butler, White, Nestle, Aland, Norris, Kutilek, Carson, Bryce, Wallace, et al, to help promote their validity. If they are not somehow directly involved with the RCC, they are certainly guilty as co-conspirators in her treachery.

Perhaps Butler’s motivation is the promise of the latest Darth Vader action figure in a package signed by the Pope that he can add to his collection of Star Wars paraphernalia. How any supposed God-fearing Christian could have such adoration for  blatantly occultic Hollywood trash is bewildering.

Edited and Updated by Dr James A, PhD

_____________________________________________________

* From The Forged Origins of the New Testament, Tony Bushby writes,

The revelations of ultraviolet light testing


In 1933, the British Museum in London purchased the Sinai Bible from the Soviet government for £100,000, of which £65,000 was gifted by public subscription. Prior to the acquisition, this Bible was displayed in the Imperial Library in St Petersburg, Russia, and “few scholars had set eyes on it” (The Daily Telegraph and Morning Post, 11 January 1938, p. 3). When it went on display in 1933 as “the oldest Bible in the world” (ibid.), it became the centre of a pilgrimage unequalled in the history of the British Museum.


Before I summarize its conflictions, it should be noted that this old codex is by no means a reliable guide to New Testament study as it contains superabundant errors and serious re-editing. These anomalies were exposed as a result of the months of ultraviolet-light tests carried out at the British Museum in the mid-1930s. The findings revealed replacements of numerous passages by at least nine different editors.

Photographs taken during testing revealed that ink pigments had been retained deep in the pores of the skin. The original words were readable under ultraviolet light. Anybody wishing to read the results of the tests should refer to the book written by the researchers who did the analysis: the Keepers of the Department of Manuscripts at the British Museum (Scribes and Correctors of the Codex SinaiticusH. J. M. Milne and T. C. Skeat, British Museum, London, 1938).

**

Tischendorf’s first find contained 43 leaflets which he dubbed the Codex Frederico-Augustanus, in dedication to Frederick Augustus of Saxony, a Roman Catholic, married to a Roman Catholic, and buried at Katholische Hofkirche, a Roman Catholic cemetary.

Tischendorf also notes in his first chapter of “When Were Our Gospels Written” (1874) that,

At the same time, the committee of the Religious Tract Society of
Zwickau expressed a desire to circulate this pamphlet, provided it were
recast and adapted for popular use. Although I had many other
occupations, I could not but comply with their request, and without
delay applied myself to the task of revising the pamphlet. I was glad
of the opportunity of addressing in this way a class of readers whom my
former writings had not reached; for, as the real results of my
researches are destined to benefit the church at large, it is right
that the whole community should participate in those benefits.

This popular tract, in the shape in which I now publish it, lacks, I
admit, the simple and familiar style of the usual publications of the
Zwickau Society; but, in spite of this fault, which the very nature of
the subject renders inevitable, I venture to hope that it will be
generally understood. Its chief aim is to show that our inspired
gospels most certainly take their rise from apostolic times, and so to
enable the reader to take a short but clear view of one of the most
instructive and important epochs of the Christian church.

In sitting down to write a popular version of my pamphlet, the Zwickau
Society also expressed a wish that I should preface it with a short
account of my researches, and especially of the discovery of the
Sinaitic Codex, which naturally takes an important place

The “Zwickau prophets,” i.e., Nicholas Storch, Thomas Drechsel, and Mark Stübner, etc., claimed to be prophets of God and to have received revelations directly from God. They were leading an anti-Protestant, anti-Catholic, spiritualistic attempt at communism and anarchy based on a view of taking the millennium by force as prophets. Thomas Münzer (1490–1525) was a radical figure in the Reformation who became a leader in the Peasants’ Revolt of 1524–1525. From this man we get a clear window into all of his associates:

By Dr. James Ach- [We will address Biblical proof texts cited in the author’s quote of McCune  in Part 2 since these are common proof texts used by Calvinists to support unconditional election, and this article is addressing a response about decrees.]

X-Ray-Hip FractureSo a flunkie who calls himself ‘Hip and Thigh” from “the- blood- of- Jesus Christ -doesn’t- save -us” John MacArthur ministries, decided to challenge one of our articles on the decrees of God as viewed by Calvinism. Naturally for Bible agnostics like this, he begins with the assumption that we are wrong by default because we use the KJV and are KJVO. I suppose that means we are wrong about the Trinity, deity of Christ, believer’s baptism, cessation, the existence of God, virgin birth, Christ’s sinlessness, etc..merely because we hold that the KJV is the word of God.

Of course, we pointed out this presumptuous fallacy when James White used it as well. We received no response when we asked how Norman Geisler was considered orthodox when he wrote an endorsement of the front of James White’s “The King James Only Controversy” but was considered a heretic when he wrote, “Chosen But Free” against Calvinism. As we will presently see, his scholarship is about as believable  and accurate as his initial presuppositions and opening diatribe.

Quip and Lie finally begins his drivel in what he probably thinks is sound exegesis with the following:

Of course, anyone who is a serious student of God’s Word knows that the doctrine of God’s eternal decrees, especially as they pertain to the salvation of His elect people, does not hang upon the English word “decree” or “decrees” as translated in the KJV. I personally would expect more from someone who puts “Dr.” in front of his name, but we are dealing with an individual who takes Larry Vance seriously as a researcher.

Nothing like the begging the question fallacy right off the bat. What Quip and Thigh really means is that unless you arrive at the same conclusion as he does, you haven’t really studied SERIOUSLY. But let’s entertain his logic for a second.

If Calvinism did not hang upon the English word “decree” then why use it in the first place? Did John Calvin hang his hat on a word that had not even been introduced into the KJV yet? When John Calvin wrote, “Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction” was Calvin using the KJV here? Since the KJV was published about 50 years after Calvin died (1564) this shows just what kind of Quipper and Liar we’re dealing with here. I would certainly expect more from someone who believes they have the same ability as Samson to fight with a hip bone instead of an ice cream cone.

Quip and Lie takes a pot shot at Laurence Vance, but offers nothing in response as to why Vance was not qualified to write against Calvinism. And to date, there has been no published work by any Calvinist author refuting Vance’s book, “The Other Side of Calvinism”.

Now notice how Quip and Lie attempts to sneak in shady and uncertain “scholarship” after attempting to inoculate his readers with vitriol about our article and website:

Rolland McCune, in his first volume on systematic theology (pp., 308-309), looks at the Hebrew text and identifies 6 key words that pertain to God’s decrees: yatsar, ya’ats, ‘etsah, chashab, machshebeth, nathan. Depending upon the context they can be translated as decide, purpose, plan, device, ordain or other similar words describing God’s actions that He decided to do in eternity. They are used in such passages as Psalm 139:16, Isaiah 19:12, Jeremiah 32:19, Genesis 50:20, Jeremiah 1:5.

Coming to the NT, McCune notes 10 key words that pertain to God’s decrees and purposes: horidzo, prooridzo, protithemai, proetoimadzo, tasso, proginosko, prognois, procheiridzomai, procheriotoneo.  Likewise, depending upon the context, those words can mean to determine, appoint, fix, foreordain, elect, set beforehand. They are found in such passages as Acts 2:23, Romans 8:29, Ephesians 1:9 and 2:10, Acts 17:26, and 1 Peter 1:1:2.

While none of those words are necessarily translated as “decree” and “decrees” in the KJV, the doctrine of God’s eternal decrees is clearly confirmed by any honest evaluation of the relevant passages. But that shouldn’t concern a KJV onlyist who believes God’s Word is frozen in only one translation that is 400 years old.

Notice first that NONE of the Hebrew words carry the same meaning that Calvinism gives to “decree”. Quip and Lie was likely hanging  his hat hoping this wretched Jew did not know Hebrew. We’ll even borrow from Strong’s (a Calvinist favorite) for evidence of Quip and Lies folly (If Quip and Lie would like us to use Wallace, Mounce or anyone else, we can do that, too):

Yatsar: To form, fashion.

Ya’ats: Advise, counsel.

Etsah: Counsel, advise.

Chashab: To think, account for

…Ah, we get the point. Now what the typical Calvinist will do here, is take any of the alternate renderings where the verb form may be used in context with a passage that indicates God either foreknowing something or bringing a SINGLE EVENT to pass, and then reconstruct the definition of the word as if the word in and of itself means the same thing outside of the context it was used in. However, even THAT does not work because just as in the English word decree, none of these Hebrew words imply that God decreed anything from eternity and caused it to come to pass in the deterministic fashion in which Calvinism defines “decrees”.

This is precisely why you see the sleight- of- hand used here by Quip and Lie. Notice that after attempting to convince the reader with his plethora of initial insults and the certainty of his theology, he then punts to UNcertainty with, “the Hebrew words CAN be translated…” (typical anti-KJVO “scholarship onlyism” Bible agnostic logic) Which is it? Do these words prove the Calvinist decree as defined by Calvinism is accurate or not? Quip’s argument was that there are words in Hebrew that are equivalent to “decree”. Well of course there are! Why is that? Because “decree” IN THE BIBLE DOES NOT MEAN THE SAME THING AS DECREE DEFINED BY CALVINISM and that was the whole point of our article, “The Decrees of God”.

For example, the decrees spoken of in Daniel 4-6 show decrees made by a king. Something they gave counsel about or ordered. The Calvinist will then say “See! There it is! The word ‘decree’ is similar to these other Hebrew words”. And that’s the catch. Here Quip and Lie wants the readers to agree with him first that decree is not an isolated usage, get the reader to believe that “decree” and other Hebrew words for “counsel” “ordain” are synonymous with decree, and then proceed to create his own definition of decree which for any Calvinist, is defined by Calvin or the Westminster Confession (pick one); that God from eternity past has determined ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER come to pass. This then causes the reader to believe in the Calvinist usage of other Hebrew usages as synonymous with the Calvinist definition of decree by default. Neat trick isn’t it! Yes, if you are truly that gullible.

Naturally, when the Calvinist is faced with the implications of this statement, they will blame supralapsarianism although the infra and supralapsarians all use the same ‘proof texts’. Even some Calvinists like Berkouwer bite the bullet on this one, “We can not speak of before and after in God’s eternal decrees as we do in time, hence the difference between supra and infra can be called imaginary because it implies the application of a temporal order to eternity”. And yet when the Calvinist is faced with such conundrums, they simply pawn it off on “mystery”, or in Quip and Lie’s case, on the KJV that wasn’t around when John Calvin wrote about God’s decrees.

Quip and Lie proceeds to argue about God’s eternality, of which we have a question for him as well!

“I’ll go out on a limb and assume that our KJVO apologist at least affirms the eternality of God. To my knowledge, I don’t think I am dealing with an open theist Socinian heretic.

So far so good. We are not Open Theists. We do believe that God knows the future, but disagree that foreknowledge is an independent force of God that creates its own opportunities and events. It’s not the God of Foreknowledge, but the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge means to know, and to know ahead of time, it does not mean to create. God did not KNOW the world into existence, He SPOKE the world into existence. If everything were determined simply because God foreknew it, then all matter and creation would necessarily be eternally existent because you can not separate what God knew from when He actually created anything. But moving on so as to not overwhelm our critic with common sense…

An eternal God knows all things, because He is, say it with me, ETERNAL. There is no knowledge He has to gather to Himself. Add to that the fact that He is the creator. An eternal creator creates all that there is, and because He is the creator, He not only knows all that will transpire in history future, He has planned it so, all the good, bad, and ugly. The fact of detailed biblical prophecy affirms that point.

That means God has planned for man’s salvation, and specifically from Scripture, a particular people, or what is revealed to us as His redeemed elect.  It is not some nebulous concept of “The Elect” to which God has left people to choose if whether or not they will join the club. It is people, individuals, that God chooses.

But let’s leave the theological ramifications aside for now. Our KJVO advocate insists God’s decrees do not pertain to election or predestination  He also brashly claims God’s decrees are only made in TIME and not eternity. He wants to keep God out of the electing to salvation business and let man choose his own destiny with his freewill. But does the Bible confirm his thesis?

…ETERNAL (Did I say it right?). First of all, I do not disagree with the obvious that God knows the future, and that He has planned for certain things. God’s planning would be a natural element to His desires and wishes. But that’s where the Calvinists should stop when it comes to the foreknowledge of God. But instead, they make the pantheistic leap from there that because God knows all things, and has plans for the future, that He MUST cause all of those events to come to pass. The implications of this is that God is in fact the author and first cause of evil and sin. Though the average Calvinist vehemently rejects this implication, it is inescapable if their theology is followed consistently. And as we will demonstrate shortly, there are some things that God “decreed” that DID NOT HAPPEN.

Quip and Lie says, “let’s leave off the theological ramifications” and then offers that decrees are related to God’s predestination and election. Scripture? Proof? Plenty of presuppositional philosophy but no proof albeit two passages from Ephesians and Timothy, neither of which support his claim.

Of Ephesians 3 Quip writes:

Without this becoming an exercise in the obvious, let’s first consider Ephesian 3:11 (taken from the KJV text so as to be consistent),

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Note my emphasis. “Eternal purpose.” God had a purpose that is described as eternal. There are actually two words here translated as “purpose” and “purposed.” Both words,prothesis and poieo have the meaning “to set forth” and “to do,” respectively. Paul is saying that in eternity, because again, they are “eternal” purposes, God set forth to do something. In the case of Ephesians 3, it is to reveal God’s wisdom in regards to the salvation of the gentiles. That is eternal salvation that was “decreed,” because well, if you purpose to do something, that means you decreed it to happen, right?

No Non Calvinist denies that God’s PURPOSE is that He desires all men to be saved, and that Christ accomplished the atonement to secure that purpose for those who repent and believe. But Quip’s interpretation is altogether implying something the text does not say. There is a stark difference on what God’s purpose and plan is and him forcing men against their wills based upon an arbitrary election that damns some sinners simply because God had pleasure in condemning them to an eternal hell. Read the text again Quip, “purpose (prothesis)” here is not a verb (nor an exception to where nouns are used as verbs) and thus you can not imply action on God’s part by forcing a grammatical implication that is not in the text.

And on Timothy, Quip opines that,

Let’s look at one more taken from 2 Timothy 1:8,9,

8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Once more, note my emphasis. Paul speaks of being saved and called by a holy calling. Paul did not get called because of his works, but according God’s own purpose and grace. The word “purpose” is again translated from prothesis, which means “to set forth.” What did God set forth to do according to Paul’s words? To save and call him and his friend Timothy to whom he is writing. When did God set forth to save and call Paul and Timothy? BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. When exactly is that? Oh, I’ll venture a guess here and say ETERNITY PAST!  In fact, the phrase “world began” was translated from pro chronos, which means “Before Time!.”

The very translation this guy claims to be the only sure and reliable Word of God flatly contradicts him. Now he sits upon the horns of a significant dilemma. Will he side with the authority of his beloved translation or his feverish devotion to hating Calvinism? Or perhaps he’ll choose a third option of spinning the Bible in such a way so as to re-interpret it to favor him? What’s a rapid, anti-Calvinist KJV onlyist to do?

Once again, the exact same flaw as his argument on Ephesians 3:11. Remember, the entire context of his debate was about our article on the decrees of God, and how Calvinism defines decrees as God determining all things whatsoever comes to pass. 2 Timothy 1:8-9 shows God had a purpose, what He desired and wanted to happen, but He also chose to give men free will (the libertarian kind). What this verse does NOT say, is that God CAUSED anyone’s salvation as determined by any decree, past present or future or as “determined” (as Calvinism defines determine) at all.

Now let us show you some monkey wrenches in Quips theology.

The story follows in 1 Samuel 23 where David is on the run from Saul. David is cornered in  Keilah with Saul hot on his trail. David then inquires of the LORD in verses 12-14,

Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up.

13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.

Notice that the LORD said of Saul “he WILL deliver thee up”. What happened in verse 13? Saul, “FORBARE to go forth”. Saul did NOT deliver David up, Saul FORBARE. God said unequivocally that Saul WILL deliver David, and then Saul did not because David did something that altered the course of his destiny in the same manner that a sinner alters his destiny of judgment when He trusts Christ as Saviour.

If God “determines all things” then naturally God is the author of all the confusion that men experience. Yet 1 Corinthians 14:33 says He is not the author of confusion. If God determines all things, then that includes all the temptations men face, yet God says “Let no man say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted of God’. See James 1:12-14. If God desires and causes others to sin by the determination of His counsel before the foundation of the world, then we would not read the following statements by God in Jeremiah 32:35,

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

In the OT, Israel is the elect of God (Isaiah 45:4) and yet God sent Jonah to a city of Gentiles. What’s more is that God throws the following nuts and bolts against the Calvinist determinist in Jonah 3:8-10.

 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Now can Mr. Hip see where God said, “and God repented of the evil, that HE SAID HE WOULD DO unto them, and DID IT NOT”? Chalk it up to “conditional prophecy” if you want to, but it demonstrates that not everything that God says is determined to come to pass by some eternal decree because the Scriptures prove over and over again that man’s decisions made in time can and HAVE altered the path of what God said WOULD HAPPEN with and without conditions.

Now on to our final question that we have for Mr. Lip and Chicken Thigh. If sin is necessary to vindicate God’s sovereignty, to the extent that He eternally decreed that all things come to pass as He ordains them, was there a lapse in God’s sovereignty before He executed judgment on the first sin? Was God fully God, content from all eternity and satisfied BEFORE He became sovereign over creation? If God decreed all such events, included sin because of its “eternal purpose”, and therefore his decree and preterition are necessary to prove His sovereignty, what happened to God’s sovereignty from the time that He was content and satisfied from eternity past to the time when the first sin was manifested, and the subsequent judgment of that sin?

If Quip and Lie thought for one second that us ignoring some of his ridiculous comments was any indication of his pedantic intellectual superiority, let this be the beginning of a beautiful love/ hate relationship, where we hate to see well meaning believers caught up in error, but love debunking the arguments and fallacies of self aggrandizing Bibliophobes.