Archive for the ‘Jocelyn Zichterman I Fired God’ Category

vomitJust when I thought that Jocelyn Zichterman’s “IFB Cult Survivors” group couldn’t get any more pathetic, I was sent a post from their group page which essentially uses the tragedy of a bus accident in Indianapolis, Indiana that claimed the lives of several people from an Indiana Baptist church as an opportunity to rehash accusations against Chuck Phelps who lost 2 children in the accident and further vilify the fundamental Baptists.

While I am certainly not a fan of Chuck Phelps’ theology, and understand the ire against Chuck Phelps for his alleged* role in the cover up of the rape of Tina Anderson, to use the deaths of his children-who had nothing to do with any of Chuck Phelps actions-to slander Baptists and affirm that such actions were some kind of poetic justice is disgusting. Some of the group even went so far as to accuse Chuck Phelps of child molestation, and to my knowledge that is the first time that accusation has ever been leveled against Phelps.

The vitriol was started by Jon Weaver who reasoned that since Chuck Phelps had no compassion for Tina Anderson, then he has no compassion for Chuck Phelps. Not even Tina Anderson herself shared the sentiment of the members of Jocelyn Zichterman’s anti-Christian group [1] Even Darrell Dow of Stuff Fundies Like had the decency to avoid using this tragedy as an opportunity to jump on the bandwagon of those who hate Phelps. Dow wrote,

We’ve had harsh words in the past for Chuck Phelps but today I hope we can set those things aside and weep with those who weep. Nobody deserves to lose a child, a brother, a sister, a father or mother this way. Anyone who would follow the darker angels of their nature to find some sense of retribution here runs the risk of losing both their humanity and my sympathy.

Almighty God, look with pity upon the sorrows of those for whom we pray. Remember them, Lord, in your mercy; nourish them with patience; comfort them with a sense of your goodness; lift up your countenance upon them; and give them peace; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Melissa “God is a sick bastard” Fletcher, the sister of Jocelyn Zichterman and administrator of the group stated that, ” I had the same feeling Jon. It sounds heartless but I don’t have any sympathy for Chuck Phelps” as a follow up to Jon quoting a Stuff Fundies Like member, where Jon pens the following,

If I still believed in god, I would consider the following quote prophetic. Stuff Fundies Like “Tiarali April 23, 2013 at 8:35 pm
Chuck Phelps makes me sick. I’m just so thankful that the Lord sees his heart. He will be held accountable for his evil deeds one day. Not soon enough, though.”

Another blogger, Delaine Rae said,

When I heard about Chuck’s son dying, I fell back into the IFB mindset of everything bad being a direct punishment for your own sin. The good person in me feels bad just writing off 3 deaths and children being caught up in this, but then again, I learned to connect dots by the most imaginatively cruel people in existence.

Now I don’t know what church Ms. Rae has been to, but I know of no IFB church that holds that “everything bad” that happens to a believer is punishment for sin. I have debunked that sentiment on this site several times from those of a fatalist and deterministic persuasion, yet no Baptist I know of who is familiar with the book of Job plays the role of Job’s friends and lays all blame for personal tragedies on the sins of others.

It is sad and pathetic that groups like this that claim that the IFB is a “cult” display such a gross caricature of IFB churches, and use the tragedy suffered by someone they hate as a catalyst for further anti Christian rhetoric.

Our prayers go out to Chuck Phelps and his family, and the other families who lost their lives that day in Indiana. And for our critics who don’t like that sentiment, I hope your computer gets infested with a hundred viruses.

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*Since Chuck Phelps was not convicted of any conspiracy in the event surrounding Tina Anderson, we are legally obligated to state that the accusations against Phelps are “alleged”. Chuck Phelps has written an exhaustive explanation for these events at http://www.drchuckphelps.com/

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bible burnJust when I thought the rantings at Jocelyn Zichterman’s rampantly atheistic group “Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) Cult Survivors” couldn’t get any worse, someone sent us a link to this post which begins:

Finally made it through the new testament.The rice paper in the bible makes great rollin paper.

And of course, this Bible burning in using the Bible for rolling either cigarettes or marijuana gets tacit approval from the sister of Jocelyn Zichterman, and group administrator, Melissa Fletcher, who replies:

I always had “don’t destroy the Bible” guilt. Like the KJV, thrashed out book of my childhood would somehow make me wrong with God if I tossed it.

One poster who made it clear that he was not IFB, simply asked “what’s wrong with believing the Bible” and because of that statement, was called a “Bible thumper” to which Melissa replied, “Bible thumpers are not welcomed here”.

The group began as an attack against the IFB and it’s followers based on experiences that Jocelyn Zichterman had with her own father, Bart Janz, a Baptist preacher, and her brother Jason Janz, also a preacher. Jocelyn’s husband, Joseph Zichterman, was also once a highly recognized fundamentalist preacher and together along with his wife, had a website that encouraged belief in the scriptures when Joseph made an unexpected and abrupt change and left his Baptist pulpit.

Their flight away from the IFB also appears to have occurred after Jocelyn’z brother, Jeremy, passed away after spending 14 years in a coma caused by an automobile accident [1](although it appears from other articles I have seen that Jeremy, too, was included in the allegations of sexual abuse against Jocelyn although I am not aware to what extent. I have read where the allegations against Jason Janz involved him being on top of her fully clothed when they were in their early teens [2], but have not been advised or informed if there were allegations that exceeded those details, and considering the source of the above link #2, without separate corroboration can not rely solely on a single comment from a person who claims to know Jason).

Nevertheless, the group has evolved into an all-out attack against Christianity as a whole. The allegations against Bart, Jason, Jeremy, if true would certainly give Jocelyn validation for her anger, but why blame God? Unfortunately, many who suffer abuse at the hands of professing Christians throw the Bible out altogether (or burn it, as is the matter at issue in this article). It’s as though if God is all-powerful, and COULD have stopped abuse, then the conclusion is that He SHOULD have stopped it, and because it was permitted per se, according to the abused it is ultimately God’s fault.

This is a classic argument against Christianity in the problem of the existence of evil. If God is a loving God, why does He permit chaos? The short answer to that (and I say short because there have been entire volumes written on this subject) is that God gave man dominion over the earth, and man chose to use his choice to acquire knowledge of good and evil by disobeying God which produced a domino effect that has cursed all of humanity with sin. Although God provided a remedy from the penalty of sin in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the deliverance from the presence of sin and judgment upon unbelievers is yet future. God has not forced man to comply with His standards, and since He is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance, in His patience He has allowed man the opportunity to come to Christ even during a time where it appears that evil has been the victor in world events.

The fact remains is that God HAS done something about evil, but man in his lust for vengeance seeks his own brand of justice, and wants that justice right now, and if God doesn’t judge immediately and prevent evil from occurring, He must not be a loving God. Yet those who are unsaved are already under judgment and are awaiting their sentence if they have not received the free pardon that is offered through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

These are all facts that were once known to Jocelyn, and she has allowed the crisis she has faced to shape her views against God, and is now encouraging and permitting an assault against the Bible, Christians, and God altogether.

What is also sad are the amount of members who at one time, professed to be Christians, now siding with Jocelyn. Two of the most noteworthy are Cynthia McClaskey and Nancy Bicknell. We’ve written a few words about Cynthia on here, but Nancy Bicknell has been the moderator in Jocelyn’s group for about six months according to Jocelyn. Nancy Bicknell poses as a Christian in groups like Profaned Pulpit (an anti-IFB group but with at least some emphasis on the Bible in that the group encourages belief in God and the Bible, but maintains many of the attitudes of the other anti-fundamentalist groups) and yet sings the praises of Jocelyn Zichterman in the following comment:

So proud of your accomplishment…what a great book and timing to open the eyes of the public to the IFB abuse.

Nancy Bicknell places humanism and psychiatry above God and the Bible, and if she is or ever was a Christian, it amazes me how any professing Christian deems it wise or appropriate to stand in agreement with those who attack God and the Bible. It is like the Pharisees and Sadducees who even though having fundamentally different views of Old Testament doctrine, came to agreement on the “problem” of Jesus Christ and ultimately set aside their differences for a common cause and conspired to crucify Him.

But God will not be mocked. The sad thing is that the Bible they are burning will be their judge one day. And the retributions that they accused God of neglecting will be a reality against them for their rejection of and mocking of Jesus Christ. Nobody will get away with their abuse or sin when this world eventually draws to a close.

tree hugIn a rare appearance on her own group page (she has a habit of starting groups and then not paying attention to them), Jocelyn Zichterman, the woman who “fired God”, wrote the following for a topic discussion:

Another topic: Do we die and go to the “kingdom of heaven”? Or are we living ON the kingdom of heaven? If you conclude we die and GO TO the kingdom of heaven, you would surmise (potentially) that we shouldn’t give a F*** about this earth we live on. But if you understand we’ve been given this planet by God/s, then you surmise that we must CARE FOR this planet (yes?). What were you taught and how has it altered your view of “Going Green” and what that means to the human race? [profanity edited by us]

At first I thought she may have simply switched religions and went from her old Baptist roots to Catholicism and was attempting to start a discussion on Dominion Theology, but then I noticed that “God/s” was plural, so considering the degree of which atheism has been promoted in her group, and the amount of Christians being banned from the group, perhaps maybe Wiccan? [1][2]

I thought, Joc just wants to have a pow-wow about tree hugging, she doesn’t really mean let’s all go green. But then just when I thought she could have accused the Baptists of everything from cereal that gets too soggy too soon, to stores that can’t sell helium for balloons anymore, she made this grandiose claim:

I understand what both of you are saying. That’s why I brought this up. We have to rally together as a nation/world and enable everyone to “go green” or it will never happen. Just thoughts to chew on — but it’s a new day — and if we all talk about our childhoods and how they indoctrinated us to HATE this earth, well, we can be the ones to inform the masses — so LASTING change can finally be made. If we don’t understand how to take care of the place we live on — then how in the Gods name can we be entrusted to care for anything else? [emphasis added]

Now I must admit, THAT’S a new one! So now to add that Baptists subjugate and objectify women, teach members to abuse children, we can add “indoctrinating us to hate this earth” to the list.

I get that spending quality time with abortion proponent and Democratic National Committee spokeswoman, Debbie Wasserman broken-branchSchultz, may have went to her head (the Dems have a time of it promoting Al Gores Green Agenda), but to go full Shirley Maclaine on the Baptists with the absurd notion that our children were taught to hate the earth?

I’ve listened to a lot of preachers in my life, read hundreds of books written by Baptists, and spent countless hours watching videos of sermons and lectures by Baptist preachers, and I don’t remember in my childhood or church experience ever being taught that my enemy was the earth, the flesh and the devil.

Shame on the Baptists for not taking the earth’s feelings seriously and for minimizing and covering up abuse of the trees. Perhaps she can get “shoot Baptists on site” added to the Biodiversity Treaty (signed by Clinton in ’99) if their children are found in a tree house made from endangered wood.

DISCLAIMER

No trees, grass, or leaves were harmed in the publishing of this article, it was completely electronically produced from a computer made with recycled plastic.

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See also “The Fruit of Jocelyn Zichterman’s “I Fired God”=Atheism

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Atheism?

Jocelyn Zichterman writes of her “experience in the IFB cult” in a book titled, “I Fired God”, and runs a Facebook page called, “Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) Cult Survivors”.

Without going into detail about Jocelyn’s claims to have been an advocate appointed by the FBI to assist victims, or her communist beliefs that government should mandate policies in churches and Bible colleges, let us just show you the type of fruit that her group produces:

What I’ve learned while studying atheism: Atheism is widely misunderstood, even by some of those who claim to be atheist. Its not that I can prove there is no god. Its more like I’ve seen the “evidence” for your god and have found it to be woefully insufficient. This world functions exactly the same with your god in charge as it would if we were simply highly evolved primates with no divine creator. If you claim that there is a god who not only created this world, but also cares about what happens in this world, about what gender I am, about whom I love or in what position I love them, you have an insanely high burden of proof. It is not on me to prove that God doesn’t exist. It is on you to prove he exists and cares what I do. (Two different cases) Please note – the Bible is not evidence. Church Father’s are not evidence, random claims of creation instead of evolution are not evidence. You may believe god exists by faith, as faith acknowledges there is no evidence, but do not come to me with faith and call is evidence. Only after coming away from Christianity and freeing myself from the mental slavery and suspension of disbelief, have I been able to find real healing. For me, surviving the IFB cult has required a return to reason, scientific process and a life that is firmly anchored in the here and now. I don’t believe based on faith, I follow the evidence and the evidence thus far leaves me with no other conclusion than there is no god. (all credit for non-original thought goes to Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Pen Gillette and others whose name I have forgotten)
Donna Jefferson I, too, have found solace and peace in atheism. You will be attacked for your views, scripture will be quoted, and outrage will be expressed but I appreciate your courage and conviction.
Rachel Raub I am glad you got out and I am glad you found what works for you. ……Rachel Raub Signed: Stereotypical Loudmouthed Feminist.
Elizabeth Niederer Bummer, can’t find it. In any case, the guest was an eminent scientist and provided some pretty compelling-sounding arguments for behaviors we consider to be uniquely human, such as demonstrations of altruism, ethical or moral principles, being far more widespread and NOT tied to religion or philosophy. 

Gee, if monkeys can treat one another well, one might think non-religious humans could do the same eh? *eyeroll*
Sharon Cooney I identify as a Humanist, and I suspect there are a few here who are as well, but don’t realise it. I do not accept that there is any kind of deity to be feared or judged by. I live by the Golden Rule, and encourage others around me to as well – without shoving it down anyone’s throat (each to their own). Common decency, respect for your fellow human (including those who are mentally bound by dogma), respect for the earth, respect for other living things (yes, I eat meat because we are omnivorous beings) so there is hope for a better future for our descendants has absolutely nothing to do with any god, or any religion. I am a free thinker. I believe back in the day I may have been called “one of those long haired hippies”, and I reckon I would have agreed whole-heartedly.
Michael Holt What made me denounce Theism? I faced the fact that if I used the same line of reasoning that I used to reject a belief in foreign gods, that I would have to give up mine too. In Science, we have something called the Null Hypothesis. Its what we use to test the natural world. If a hypothesis can not be proven true, then it is to be rejected and considered false. Yahweh, as well as other foreign gods, is credited for scientific claims in the bible, that we now know is false. That means that an all knowing creator God could not have inspired the bible writers to write what they wrote. Debunk the Creation myths? Then the God of that myth must not exist. What I found when I spoke to others about this? Is that they would make special pleadings and logic leaps to justify and excuse these falsehoods. And what happens when the bible makes a false scientific claim? Christians just twist it and make it symbolic or poetic or something else. But here is the thing. Under Null Hypothesis? I don’t have to prove negatives. I have to prove positives. I can still reject theistic claims and logically conclude that there is no rationally justified reason to believe in one. Which by default? Still made me an Atheist.
Joel Erickson As far as stealing being wrong regardless of whether or not someone else sees you, there’s this thing called empathy that allows people to place themselves in the shoes of another individual to try to share their experiences. Empathy requires no supernatural explanation.

As far as your passive-aggressive description of people sending themselves to Hell, you are reinforcing the concept that the relationship with a god and the relationship abusers have with the people they abuse is very similar.

People who are abused are asking for it.

People who abuse have no choice; their inability to control themselves is the fault of the person or people they abuse.

Do these comments sound like a deity you know of?
David Piper Something similar started me on the path to Atheism.The question that could not be answered by any fundie Christian I know: “Why would a (supposedly) loving god allow fully 2/3rds of the world’s population (non Christians of ANY variety) to perish?
Translation Errors Have ALWAYS Brought Harm To Women
Ryan Dillingsworth Now its my turn to say “what the f are you talking about?” Did you even look at the whole post – women are actually being stoned to death, enslaved, and all sorts of shit around the world (and even maybe at a few IFB “wayward girls” houses) and actually do need advocates – the point is to point out the difference between this and those that run around making an issue out of every little thing like getting asked out for coffee or people using “gendered” language turning everyone into enemies of one another, etc etc. ……… and no way am I a Neo-Con phony like Rush L.
We are the founders of Peaceful Parenting, Atheism, and Anarchism. If you are an atheist, anti-theist, voluntaryist, libertarian, anarchist, and into peaceful parenting.. please add us. J
Mark D Young Many Christians don’t want to deal with mental illness. They want to believe we have a soul located inside our chest, and what happens with our bodies or brains should have no effect on us, if we just “get right with the lord”
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You get the picture. This is the results of what happens when you attempt to create groups out of spite, revenge and hate.
We have addressed Skepticism here (article from Norman Geisler) and will address some of the silly logic used in some of the above comments to defend atheism. We don’t spend a great deal of time dealing with atheism because only a fool says there is no God. But for the faint-hearted who we find occasionally that truly believe some of the ridiculous presuppositions set forth by atheists and agnostics, we add 2 cents now and then.
This is in response to an email challenging us to prove that these groups produce atheists as we stated in other articles. This is only a very small handful of comments and posts from that site, and many of the members of this group are also members of the other “Do Right” groups as well.
But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Matthew 22:34
When the Pharisees saw that Jesus had out-witted the Sadduccees, they attempted to band together in a unified effort to trap Jesus. The professing Christians among these groups have adopted the same philosophy: band together with other groups even if they don’t share our views for the sake of a common cause. Even though the common cause has the appearance of pursuing legitimate concerns, God is just as concerned about the means  (2 Samuel 6:1-7) as He is the end (Eccl 7:8). And Christians who think that they can mingle with heathen and not learn their ways are fooling themselves (Psalm 106:35, 1 Cor 15:33). The above evidence of such attempts is a painful reminder of that fact.
But just a few thoughts for the atheist to ponder:
*No atheist has ever successfully explained the origins of the universe. While they claim that creation is not scientific, not even the laws of science allow for the great leaps of faith that it takes to believe in evolution or that order came from chaos. Evolution is still called the ‘THEORY” of evolution which is contrary to the terms that science gives to what it believes it can prove (the LAW of thermodynamics, the LAW of gravity, etc..).
Not only has atheism failed to explain the origin of the universe, but if their own theory of order from chaos is true, or a “Big Bang” caused creation, or massive gasses randomly created complex DNA structures that led to intelligent life, where did the Big Bang come from and from whence did all of the gases come from? Some argue that they have always existed which flies in the face of their argument of the impossibility of an eternally existent God. If gases can exist for an eternity, then why not God!
*No atheist has successfully explained the innate desire of man to wish to be good and respect each other. Atheists attempt to argue (as they did in comments above) that apes can be taught to be friendly, but that’s the difference, animals have to be taught, humans do not. Every human being has a sense of morality and atheism has no adequate explanation for the origin of man’s conscience.
*Atheism has never been able to adequately provide a link between fossil records.
*While atheism argues against faith to believe in creation, they themselves will not admit to the amount of faith it takes to NOT believe there is a God or faith needed and lack of evidence for the theories proposed for evolution.

 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:18-20.

Melissa1                                               Melissa Fletcher is the sister of Jocelyn Zichterman, and moderator for their group page

JZ1